After a lot of comment and a new suspect and the impossibility of the three shots coming from the one direction and, most interestingly, Oswald’s two little daughters, which makes him the only presidential assassin so encumbered, I am struck by the resemblance of the Dallas head-shot and that other CIA hit, on Osama Bin Laden in Abbottobad.
In both, a suspect is murdered before he comes to trial. In both, no interrogation record or notes survive. In both, vital evidence is voided or suppressed by the killing of the suspect. In both, autopsy evidence is destroyed, in one case by destroying the film and washing the car, in the other, by dumping the body into the sea, thus avoiding evidence turning up that lies were told about his kidneys and his dialysis by the CIA for ten years. Was there a dialysis machine in the compound? No. Why then were we lying?
In both, a massive cover-up, lest officials in Dallas/Abbottobad be fingered by the accused as his associates, friends or accomplices. In both, the massive destruction of evidentiary material: the autopsy film, the hours of Oswald interrogation, the helmet-camera videos of the raid on the compound, the computer files, the letters, family photos. Why is the Oswald interrogation material lost? Why are the helmet-camera images all suppressed? Why the secrecy? Why the cover-up? Why cover up anything? Why?
The SEALs took out Obama as Ruby took out Oswald. Things had to be suppressed. By Sunday in Dallas, they knew what they were.
Oswald had no motive to kill Kennedy, but the CIA did; and the Mob. Each had been threatened by Bobby and Jack, who had to go therefore and were hit therefore. Those two had motive. Oswald did not.
As with Lindy Chamberlain, the lack of motive was a sure sign of innocence.
It still is.
Discuss.
Name:
Right wing Cubans - revenge for the Bay of Pigs. Details elsewhere . . .
They would have been more untidy, and less capable of a massive cover-up.
The whole thing depended on Oswald being fingered, paraded, killed, and his testimony destroyed.
Their power would not have reached, unaided, that far.
They needed help.
True; Johnson was desperately afraid that if the Soviets or the Castro Cubans were found to be behind it. the American people would demand war - nuclear war. Hence the faked autopsy and the Warren Commission manned by, amongst others, Gerry Ford!
The Warren Commission desperately needed a lone crazed gunman.
FBI, CIA and Secret Service were happy to cooperate to cover up their own ineptitude.
All these massive cover ups and yet no one has ever left a diary, a deathbed confession, a document that shows the CIA, or Lydon Bainees, or the mob …
I asked earlier if you’d read Tim Weiner’s history of the CIA. What comes through their entire history is bumbling, mistakes, leaks, spies etc. How come there are so many accounts of CIA failings, of their errors and mistakes and yet they managed the greatest cover-up in post-war history?
They missed the Berlin Wall coming down for Christs sake.
What interests me as that all of you are using and quoting material that has emerged from within the USA, doesn’t that make you think that if there was a massive cover up involving the Oval Office, CIA, Dallas police, navy surgeons, the FBI, Warren Commission etc, then someone over the past 50 years would have noted, recorded evidence and leaked it or sold it or given it to the NY Times?
Oswald is your dingo …
“They missed the Berlin Wall coming down for Christs sake.”
come on Terrance…..you don’t believe that twaddle, do you???
I mean you didn’t hear it from…….them….did you?
quite incredible.
Why would anyone confess? We just found out who killed Van Gogh. Was there a confession of that? No. It was just a good writer piecing together evidence.
Why would you confess? Your children and grandchildren would be persecuted for it, like Oswald’s daughters.
Why would you confess? Do Auschwitz guards confess, or sell their memoirs?
Why not?
Oswald is your dingo
I wish I’d said that
In the sense that Oswald and the dingo were both plausible patsies, yes.
I’ve been skimming the Mailer book again, and JFK’s murderer is Marguerite Oswald, man what a “weib”.
Psychologically, Doestevsky would have fingered Oswald not only as capable but driven.
5o years from now it will still be Oswald the lone gunman.
“Driven”?!?!?
Really?
Which of Dostoevski’s templates do you see as Oswald’s…….neat fit?
I am most curious.
Have you seen the video from the side?
I think the word you want is ‘dweeb’.
Time to move on to James Earl Ray and Martin Luther King?
And Ray’s paymaster, J.Edgar Hoover.
Bob, you can only reach your conclusion by selectively ignoring a vast amount of rigorous scientific analysis; not all of it from the Warren Commission.
If you choose to suggest that all involved were paid up members of the conspiracy, or frightened of speaking the truth, then your conspiracy will run into the many hundreds.
Is the science wrong, or are the scientists part of it?
Pick a couple of old chestnuts (the three shots from the rear, the magic bullet, the wounds, the fake backyard photograph, whatever you wish) and weigh up the counter arguments.
Allthumbs gave you a link to the McAdams site, that’s a good start.
You keep banging on about motive. Why did Oswald take a pop at Walker in April (with a rifle, no less)?
Here’s the note he left for Marina telling her what to do in the event of his death, or arrest. She readily admits it genuine.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walkernote1.jpg
and
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/walkernote2.jpg
I can quote from a translation, if required.
Why did Oswald lie about owning a rifle?
Why did Oswald pull a loaded revolver on a cop when arrested in the Texas Theatre?
Why did he deny ever having an alias?
He was a patsy? Are you aware that the most common criminal defence, when faced with an overwhelming body of evidence and no alibi, is to claim, “I’ve been framed.”
Consider the context of the remark:
Reporter: Were you in the [Book Depository Building] at the time [of the shooting]?”
Oswald: Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir.
Second Reporter: Back up, man!
Third Reporter: Come on, man!
Fourth Reporter: Did you shoot the president?
Oswald: No. They’ve taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I’m just a patsy.
Ah! The CIA is back!
What about the six (6) shots - conservatively - some fired simultaneously? From different directions?
Hmmm?
Reporting for duty.
Doug, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the writer Josiah Thompson.
He looked at the statements of 172 witnesses and found that 136, 79 percent, thought they heard three shots and only 6, 3.5 percent, heard four shots.
The HSCA study of 178 eyewitness statements found 132, or 74.2 percent, heard three shots and only 6, 3.3 percent, heard four shots.
London Weekend Television, that noted CIA clearing house, examined 189 witnesses and said 144 heard three shots and only eight heard four shots.
Add to this the well reviewed trajectory research, together with Kennedy’s wounds and, well, you know clearly my position.
Ever heard of silencers?
I should clarify - some shots needed to be heard, some were not.
In case you missed it :
Some of the House of Representatives Committee (1979) findings :
(quote)
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.
* The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Soviet Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.
* The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the Cuban Government was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy.
* The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
* The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
(end quotes)
Hardly an endorsement of the lone gunman theory, is it?
Hmmm?
I have been waiting for this post, Doug.
Can I take it that you find the HSCA’s conclusion would not be consistent with a government conspiracy to hide the truth?
The reason I have peppered my rebuttals with references to the HSCA is the focus on science. This was G Robert Blakey’s focus.
The end result, and the sole driver of the conclusion you quoted, was the acoustical evidence.
In fact, up until the very end of their investigation their conclusion was Oswald acted alone. A draft report (December 13, 1978) was made stating there was no conspiracy.
Only after Mark Weiss and Ernest Aschkenasy produced their analysis of a static filled police dictabelt, a recording that contains no actual sounds of gunshots (they based their analysis on impulse sounds and echo pattern predictions and concluded a 95% probability that a fourth shot was fired from the grassy knoll)was the conclusion revised.
Unfortunately, in 1982, a panel of twelve physicists and scientists (from MIT, Bell telephone, Berkeley labs)heard the same impulse sounds, but concluded these were recorded one minute after the assassination when the presidential limousine was long gone down the Stemmons freeway.
This evidence has completely discredited the earlier analysis.
I’m glad you agree.
The Yanks still couldn’t get it right, 15 years on.
And you can’t get close even today.
They got closer than you are in 1979.
I dare say you are acting on instructions, to muddy the waters as best you may. How is Langley right now; rather cold and miserable, I hope.
Discredited, you say. Why then has the House of Representatives not overturned its previous findings?
Why have the Congresspersons of that era not altered their opinion, in letters to the editor, or to later House and Senate leaders?
Please answer this.
Yeah, but one who heard four shots was Jackie. And the driver heard one at least from the front, because he stopped , or slowed dlwn, believing he was driving into danger.
If he had heard the shot from behind, he would have sped up.
Bob, Greer’s testimony reads as follows:
“Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And I didn’t-it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to me, “Get out of here fast.” And I cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting away.”
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol2/page117.php
And Jackie’s:
Mr. Rankin:
Do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots?
Mrs. Kennedy:
Well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was Governor Connally yelling. And it used to confuse me because first I remembered there were three and I used to think my husband didn’t make any sound when he was shot. And Governor Connally screamed. And then I read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. But I used to think if I only had been looking to the right I would have seen the first shot hit him, then I could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. But I heard Governor Connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as I turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. He was receiving a bullet. And those are the only two I remember.
And I read there was a third shot. But I don’t know. Just those two.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol5/page180.php
The entire Warren Commission Report can be read here. While there are certainly flaws, there are far less than you may have been led to believe.
And Doug, I thought my McLean’s weren’t showing.
It just gets better. The first two shots were probably silenced : just like engine backfires, perhaps?
Hmm?
I don’t see what his attempt on Walker has to do with it. It was done by night, and he hoped to survive it. Why would he sacrifice his life, probably, and the future of his daughters by killing in broad daylight a man he quite liked and not have even a hire car to drive away in?
Why would he leave his pistol behind? He might have killed Tippett in fear he was being arrested for Kennedy’s murder — which he was. He might have shot at Walker, a Texas fascist.
But why behave like a suicide bomber when he had children to feed, and kill the Soviet Union’s last, best hope of world peace?
Why?
The attempt on Walker’s life is significant because it demonstrates unequivocally that Oswald was prepared to kill.
Bugliosi writes: “It is important to understand that he viewed himself as a militant soldier of action in the Marxist class struggle to bring about change.”
Oswald wrote the following to his brother Robert:
“I would like to see the present capitalist government of the U.S. overthrown…I fight for communism…In the event of war I would kill any American who put a uniform on in defence of the american government - any american”
Michael Paine, in testimony before the HSCA, said he had several conversations with Oswald about politics and that, “Oswald’s belief was that the only way the injustices in this society could be corrected was through a violent revolution”
Could killing the President, in his mind, be a catalyst?
Sorry Bob, I missed your earlier post.
I have discussed the basis on which the HSCA concluded probable conspiracy: the acoustical evidence, now (thanks to better science) discredited.
You may be interested in reading their conclusion that Oswald, firing from the depository, was solely responsible for Kennedy’s killing.
There is also a good discussion of motive toward the conclusion of the extract.
Find it here:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/report/pdf/HSCA_Report_1A_LHO.pdf
The entire HSCA report is archived here:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/contents/hsca/contents_hsca_report.htm
In case my last post was not a clear to response to your quite valid question, “Why have the Congresspersons of that era not altered their opinion, in letters to the editor, or to later House and Senate leaders?”
The HSCA did conclude Oswald, and Oswald alone, killed the President.
The subsequent finding of probable conspiracy was an attempt to incorporate data (the acoustical analysis) that the committee felt compelling. If anything, it demonstrates a willingness to be open to the possibility of another shooter, albeit one that did not hit his mark.
Clear as day, clear as the stars in the sky – just wrong.
No equivocation - It was all a part of Oswald’s cover.
The Agency really don’t want to own him, do they?
The Warren Commission was ordered by LBJ to investigate only Oswald and no other suspect so they were, in that sense, not complicit. The Dallas coppers bungled the transfer and Oswald was shot and they destroyed the interrogation record that established his innocence to cover their arses. The three assassins, in the depository, in the culvert and on the Knoll, were paid well for their silence, and the forensic experts expressed their doubts but the Commission, on Johnson’s orders, overruled them.
This adds up to no more than eight or ten in the conspiracy. One of them changed the autocade route. One of them shot Tippett. One of them, Ruby, already dying of cancer, shot Oswald.
A similar count would turn up only fourteen or fifteen people in on the Bin Laden assassination, a likewise bungled operation: Obama, Clinton, Gates, a strategic planner, two helicopter pilots, eight SEALs, an army doctor.
And they will carry the sorry, scrambling details — and the helmet-video footage — to their graves.
Agreed. Any who might have blabbed quickly went missing.
DQ you’re telling the story, so who was it, the Mob, the CIA, the Anti-Castroians, the Russians, LBJ, the Dallas Police?
Or perhaps all of the above, including Oswald, from my reckoning, that puts the need-to-know count well above the 8 people Bob contends were enough to know about the conspiracy for it to work.
If you haven’t got the gist by now, I can’t help you.
I’ve got the gist, I want the facts all lined up like duck in a row. Any evidence to the contrary of a cover up/ conspiracy is pooh poohed as being part of the cover up/ conspiracy.
There are any number of conspiracy theories, any number of protagonists put forward as having the motivation to assasinate JFK for any number of reasons.
I get the gist, their is no one single, einem, un, uno,credible alternative to Oswald that is not full of probablies, and could haves and might haves and should haves, and couldabeens or mightabeens.
I’m bored let’s play a new game.
Perhaps it is time for a new game.
I’ll be Doc Holliday, you can be Ike Clanton :
“[ Ike :Nobody's that lucky at poker]
Holliday : “Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker’s just not your game. I know! Let’s have a spelling contest!”
(‘Tombstone’)
8 people is too generous allthumbs. I suspect Bob chose the number because it…had symmetry!
I favour a smaller number.
2 shooters. A handler. His handler. Then his.
5 men.
That’s it.
The shooters and the first and second handler dead before the day was out.
That leaves one man…..to die with his secret.
And one more…..
The Patsy Oswald.
Moving about the day….waiting for instructions….waiting for a whisper, a note, a signal….waiting for…something to breathe life into his neurotic fantasy.
Today he was…Walter Mitty made flesh!
And the signals came….a piece here, a word there…
Go here…..
Be there at this time…..
Do this….
Get ready Lee….
This is your time….
You the Man!
And the bullet came from the front…and it cleaved Kennedy like a ripe melon…..
and Lee took to the streets…..wide-eyed.
Wide-eyed and running.
Where was he going?
It mattered little.
He was bound to the course already plotted….surveyed and mapped and drawn.
His “innocence” only served to
legitimate the fraud.
And that’s it allthumbs.
Simple really.
Oh, if my simple outline is too incredible for you, just ask anyone that’s shot an animal where the bullet came from….at Zap315.
They’ll tell ya!
Anyway, 5 men allthumbs.
and not another soul……
Except, of course, for the Patsy
I like the post JG. But probably there were three shooters, in the classic triangulation of fire. And about 6 shots, some silenced, which sounded like engine backfires.
They did not intend to fail.
Doug, I have thought long on the necessity AND position of the third shooter (to accord with the triangulation you speak of).
I have come to the conclusion that it was NOT necessary.
I would even go far as to say that the second shooter (and shots) were a fail-safe against the frontal Zap315 shot.
That speed….that range…..that view.
A serious week-end hunter could have done it.
I could name you 7 men right now.
“I could name you 7 men right now.”
Quick, call the Dallas police!
Ah, but the case is closed : they caught the Perp within 1 hour!!!
And poor Oswald is sadly deceased. A shame, but there you go.
Caught within the hour…..
Dead within 24.
Case closed.
48
Clear as day, clear as the stars in the sky - just wrong.
(Misplaced.)
Now that you have all solved the Kennedy assassination, could you please tell me what happened to those lovely young lasses at Hanging Rock that day, was the CIA involved with the Mary Celeste and why Harold Holt was a Chinese spy.
Or prove me wrong?
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