Vale

Will Abbott now say why his hero Howard wanted Mandela hanged.

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180 Comments.

  1. Somebody might be impressed by your attempt to use the cooling corpse of Nelson Mandela as some weapon to attack Abbott and Howard.

    • So… in the hour of his death, a hero’s defeated enemies should not be listed? We leave the word ‘Hitler’ out of any obituary of Churchill?

      Why?

      Who but Howard is hurt by this? Any South African? Which one?

      Perhaps you can show me a petition signed by Abbott or Howard beseeching Mandela’s release.

      Where is it?

    • Howard, the hanger-on to the coat-tails of the British Empire (before transferring allegiance), was always ready to demonise black freedom fighters as terrorists. It would have fitted his agenda exactly if Mandela had been shot escaping or hanged after a mock trial, as so many other unsung were

      Now we have Australia backing the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent Pakistanis and others all over the world by drones – no chance for them to live to become leaders of their people

    • Hey…..Bob said this a long long time ago. Years before Mandela died. He is not using the death to attack Abbott. Bob has held this view for years. If he had just thought it up today well maybe but he didn’t. What’s more what Bob has said is true. Now you need to do some reading on this you cretin.

  2. You are an absolute fucking grub Bob. Let the world mourn this great man for a respectful amount of time before you peddle your bullshit concocted theory.

    Fuck you cunt.

    • Should Howard apologise, or not? Should Abbott apologise for him, or not?

      Please answer this.

      And say why Mandela’s enemies should not be listed.

      Howard admitted it when he said his views on Apartheid had ‘evolved’.

      • Fraser this morning called Mandela head and shoulders the greatest leader he’d met – a man of personal and political wisdom and peace (to paraphrase) – will the worm Howard bring himself to say as much about a demonised black beast?

        • …he might manage to mumble something like: for a black person he wasn’t too bad.

        • No, the worm won’t.

          The mere fact Fraser holds Nelson Mandela achievements & memory in such high esteem, ensures Howard will not acknowledge Mandela.

          Howard & Fraser haven’t agreed on anything since about 1980.

      • So what you are saying is that because John Howard said his views on apartheid had evolved is irrefutable proof that he wanted him hanged.

        You are 100% without dignity or shame.

        • Howard agreed with Thatcher 100 percent, and Thatcher wanted Mandela hanged.

          I await his comment, and so should you.

          Did he ask at any time in the 27 years of the great man’s imprisonment for his release?

          Tell me when, and where.

          • No hurry to comment by the look of it.

            He currently sits chatting to Tim Fischer in the member’s stand at Adelaide Oval. His travel bills undoubtedly being paid by our taxes Bob.

          • Don’t attempt to re-frame. YOU stated that Howard wanted Mandela hanged. You have nothing to back this up.

            YOU politicised a day of mourning.

            And as such you are a grub.

            • ‘Politicise’ Nelson Mandela? Heaven forbid.

              In what way was Mandela not political?

              What a curious thing to say.

              • You are obfuscating again. I said you are politicising a day of mourning. A day where we should be reflecting on the life of one of the titans of our time.

                You are intentionally trying to draw your political enemies into the passing of Nelson Mandela, hoping that some of his greatness adds weight to your infantile theories.

                And that makes you a grub, devoid of a sense of decency.

  3. Fact is you cannot post any link to Howard wishing Nelson Mandela hanged. At best you come up with some loose allusion to something Margret Thatcher said.

    So no, Abbott should not apologise.

    And yes, you are a pathetic low life who couldn’t wait a day before using the death of Nelson Mandela to continue your deluded attack Abbott at all cost agenda.

    • He lumped him among the black terrorist animals he loved to demonise and see killed

      • 1. Provide evidence JH wanted NMR hanged.
        2. Explicitly explain how TA is implicit in anything to do with this.
        3. It is obvious that Nelson Mandela’s life, struggles and achievements mean NOTHING more to Bob Ellis than another excuse to rail on the PM. Nelson wouldn’t have been dead for 2 hours before this utterly disgraceful post.

        • I don’t have the resources of the police to hunt down Howard like some trade union official, but here are the words of Alan Ramsey, veteran Canberra correspondent in his book “The Way we Were”

          “Across all those (seven) years, until he became PM, the name Mandela was never once uttered by Howard, who thought the ANC a bunch of terrorists, and Chief Buthelezi, white South Africa’s Uncle Tom, the voice of African reason.. . . If [John Howard and the Coalition parties] and their ilk had had their way, Nelson Mandela most likely would still be rotting in prison and South Africa would be as intransigently apartheid as ever.”

          • That’s correct jsa.

            Howard has never evolved beyond the Menzies view of Empire & the white Australia policy. He was quite vocal about the ANC being a terrorist organisation & railed against the release of Mandela.

            He strongly supported the rebel rugby & cricket tours, which were political support for apartied, bought with Krugerrands.

            He has the same negative attitude to the Dalai Lama. Howard has ardently opposed to any recognition or apology to Australia’s indigenous people.

            In fact, I can’t really recall any person of a different race that Howard accepted as an equal.

            I suspect the little worm laments never being appointed to wear Pig Iron Bob’s fancy dress around the Cinque Ports.

            In some ways I hope Abbott does appoint the worm as GG, for that together with Charles becoming King will certainly see support for an Australian republic grow rapidly.

            • Exactly, jsa & Mr Weiss – my post of this morning below, 9:57am.

              Howard & Bradman were of one mind, and in those more innocent days, so was a large part of Australia. We lived with a kind of apartheid at home – in most practical aspects if not in enshrined policy – and in large part, still do. It might be well to reflect on that, on this day.

          • If the Howard wanting Mandela hanged was so conclusive, it would take 10 seconds on google. Try ‘John Howard + Mandela + hanged’ on YouTube or Google.

            Until then, it is fantasy.

            Your move.

        • What does it matter how long he was dead? Will we, two hours after Whitlam dies, refrain from mentioning the sacking? Or John Kerr?

          Why would we?

          Why would you?

          Tell, tell.

        • It is extraordinary to say, in breach of the rules, for you do not know me, that Mandiba means nothing to me. I took my children, and Fred Hollows’ son Ben, to see him speak on the Opera House steps a few weeks after his release. I read his book and watched and reviewed the several films and miniseries made about him. I signed petitions beseeching his release.

          You cannot say things about me on this blog that have no basis in fact or rumour.

          I ask you to apologise, and give me fifty thousand dollars, or I will sue and bankrupt you.

          Begin with the apology, now..

  4. Vale Mandela, a great man.

    “De-Vale” to Abbott for supporting those who would want Mandela hanged. Perhaps it was Janette, the capital punishment freak!

    It is certainly not grubby to bring out the truth when someone dies.

    Remember it was Abbott who said
    “she just wont lay down and die”.

    Lest we forget!

    • ‘De-vale’ on a man still living.

      Idiot.

      • It is my joke…devalue! Abbott.

        • Just for the records…
          Vale also means “be strong; be well”

          It was the ignorant right who tried to do Mandela in. Scapegoating him all that time. We certainly are allowed to fight against the same here in Australia today.

          Mandela was anti fear and hate as driving forces. His focus was hope.

          It was not hope that gave us the LNC govt. Hope is still floating around in this political mix we have here…looking for a place.

        • I posted Abbott’s tribute to Mandela if you would like to challenge your ideology with actuality.

          • Is that a proper way to politicize the passing of a great soul?

            How sincere do you think the member for Warringah is in these words?

  5. What you Howard arse-lickers don’t seem to realise is that any quality obituary of Mandela will speak of his enemies. Those who wanted him dead. The better quality, more honest ones may even cover the toadying Howard’s guilt.

  6. Penny Wong’s tweet (will this work?)

    pic.twitter.com/MJkZiBZyR7— Senator Penny Wong (@SenatorWong) December 5, 2013

  7. A bit of stuff can be turned up on Google:
    http://australianpolitics.com/1999/11/12/john-howard-comments-on-mandela-and-sanctions.html

    I remember protests against apartheid in the sixties at various sporting stadia around Australia, and Howard’s Hero “The Don” on being asked to comment, stating publicly that politics and sport shouldn’t be mixed, or words to that effect.

    I think it was taken at the time to mean that the protests were out of order, not South African policies. I couldn’t find anything of Howard’s actual comments then, but I suspect he was fully sympathetic to Bradman’s views, and neither man would have changed those views over time.

    • A great man has died, I don’t want talk or thoughts on Howard to dirty this day.

      Maybe Abbott will say something to honour Mandela.

      • I agree with you Helvi; Bob Ellis should never have brought JH or TA in a post on Mandela’s death.

        A great man has died, and we should mourn this without being subjected to Bob’s petty agenda.

        • Please Kris2, I have nothing against Bob writing about Howard/Abbott in connection with Mandela. My post was directed to Glow Worm, who went to search something on Google to prove Ellis wrong, and she/he indeed found something positive that Howard said about Mandela.

          • Nope, wrong Helvi. And not to prove Ellis wrong, either.

            Where, in my post, is the ‘something positive’ I found that Howard said about Mandela? It was about apartheid and Howard’s hero, Bradman and where their sympathies probably were. Read my post again.

            • “Mandela, I think I have said before, is one of the most impressive people I have met in life and I think it’s a remarkable tribute to mankind’s capacity to forgive that a person who could have lost 27 years of his life in detention without, in the eyes of some, a proper process and the sort of appalling conditions in which he was imprisoned can complete the transition that he completed is an extraordinary thing.”

              That’s what I read in site you put up; Howard was interviewed in South Africa, and that what he says.

              I understood that you wanted us to read it, why else put it up.

              • To reveal what I read: a man out of step with his time, struggling to keep up with history – awkward, stumbling, and hoping against hope that he wouldn’t reveal what he actually believed.

                Too subtle, perhaps. But that’s how I always saw Howard – small, with small ideas and small scope for changing them.

        • Is the prosecurting the petty inquisitional agenda of the member for Warringah a proper way to mourn a great soul and who are you to try to control anyone elses behaviour? Are you a control freak?

    • All we’ll and good. I haven’t contested the content in the article. I have simply called ‘bullshit’ on Bob Ellis’ statement that Howard wanted Mandela hanged.

      And I am still waiting.

      • Well, I ask Howard to refute it.

        In as many of these column inches as he likes.

        Why did he not mention Mandela — once — in the seven years after his release? Why did he not call — once — for his release in the 27 years before that?

        Why did he oppose anti-Apartheid sanctions?

        Why, when Mrs Thatcher wanted Mandela hanged, did he say, ‘No! Never!’

        Please explain.

        • That’s it?

          That is the best evidence you have to Howard wanting Madela hanged?

          Fucking pathetic.

          • Produce your contrary evidence – how do you know that the father of the love child: Tony Abbott, did not want the great soul Nelson Mandella hanged like Margaret Thatcher said she did?

            How do you know? How could you possibly know if Howard did not agree with what Thatcher said?

            What did he think when he heard what Thatcher said or do you claim he did not hear what Thatcher said?

            There is very sound justification for the claim that when Howard heard what Thatcher said he also wanted Nelson Mandella hanged.

            And the love child – what did he think and want when he heard what Thatcher said?

            • My contrary evidence is that the host, and nobody on the planet can produce any evidence whatsoever.

              Back to law school for you big fella.

          • Kris2, So condemning, is your type of archetypal aussie male. The knocker mentality is gross.

            For all I know Howard may have believed in capital punishment in his youth. There were still hangings going on in his youth.
            Last one in the 50′s at Pentridge Gaol Victoria.

            However he tried to convince us as being a non-believer whilst PM, after and maybe before. He admitted that Janette was a believer. Not “still”. He did not say she didn’t convert to his new mindset. He just said she was different to him on this one. It may very well be true that he once said Mandela should be hanged.

            • Maybe Heather, point is though that until somebody produces some sort of evidence that JH specifically asked for Mandela to be hung it is nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.

              Prove me wrong.

              • Well we dont know as yet. Bob says Yes, and it maybe so. No cause to not believe.

                Howard seemed pretty much a non entity intil he kind of appeared in Fraser’s govt. Was it? I cant remember. He was not the most memorable guy on the political scene. He was always this funny little non-descript guy. Rather a duffer and quite gauche.

                It was interesting to hear how his grandfather made money on real estate in PNG and there were some shonky deals. Maybe he grew up with an attitude that the black people were fools..,being victims for so long and not worth much else. So sad all this terrible racism.

                Maybe as a young man he was on side with the British Right calling for Mandela’s hanging, because they were all doing it. You would have to be in the know on all this, behind the lines, getting the political juice in the late 40′s, then 50′s and 60′s. Lots of stuff was kept under wraps then, until it all broke free in the late 60′s, when we got to know a lot more.

                Thought at the time, it was curious that Howard made a point of saying his wife believed in capital punishment though, and he did not. Was that a crafty coverup for what he used to be once in his youth?

                Pardon me but I dont find the right very believable, even when they seem sincere.

            • Kris2, what evidence can you produce that YOU did not want Mandela hanged? When, in 27 years, did YOU speak up for him?

              Evidence, please.

    • The paragon of appropriateness has keyed in a few more faecal skid marx betraying yet again the control freak within

  8. ALL HAIL
    Malcom Frasier
    who headed the eminent person’s delegation that instigated the
    Gleneagles treaty that united the world to light the torch that eventually burned down the evil castle walls of Apartheid-which was the contributing factor of Nelson Mandela being freed from his years of internment to go forth and successfully declare—
    —– LET MY PEOPLE GO—

  9. Can I make a guess Kris2?

    Are you by any chance a white South African born refugee lamenting the fall of apartied, a Boer perhaps?

    A relative of John Howard?

    • You can make that guess. The only part you got right is that I am white. Maybe you should judge comments on their content, rather than trying to dismiss them based on your own prejudices.

      • Kris2, you were banned recently by Bob for one reason or another.
        It matters little; the caprice of our host is without bounds and is no longer of any interest to me.

        What is of interest to me however is this tea party of shrill posts by you.

        I’d wager that Mandela is a second order concern here and that your true purpose is simply to abuse Bob.

        Which you’ve done.

        All better now?

        Or is there some other grievance which taunts your heart?

        • Tea Party? Explain how you came up with Tea Party from my posts. Another idiot trying to pigeonhole me into a demographic they have absolutely no knowledge about.

          Go on, find my links to the tea party you clown.

          • Kris2, “tea party” as in a prissy, excited, coterie/gathering/collection of….shrill posts” and NOT the literal “Tea Party”.

            You powers of comprehension are appalling.

            Even more so perhaps than your screeching.

            Bob’s banning appears to have ….upset you.
            Somewhat.

            So many posts,
            So much spittle,

            • Well yes, it has upset me. Upon the passing of Nelson Mandela, our host of ‘unbounded caprice’ has disrespected the occasion for a ridiculous pot shot at the PM.

              I have left the door open for any of you to shut me up, you just have to substantiate your claims. No evidence yet, so I will stick to my case line. Seems to be working.

              • Kris2, some points:

                (i) First, are we clear on your “tea party” misunderstanding?
                Do you see how your affectation has clouded your powers of comprehension?
                Good.
                I accept your concession.

                (ii) Your agenda was clear from your opening gambit. You could have expressed your concern with a more circumscribed, a more restrained, rebuttal to Bob’s polemic.
                But you did not.
                You chose to announce yourself with 2 articles of abuse.
                And then expected, expected, that Bob respond according to your parameters?!?
                That was an error both of judgement and logic.

                Strange.

                You can hardly blame anyone for suspecting either your intent or your strategy.
                Your first post set the template.

                But that’s a side bar for me.

                I’m just curious as to how you’ve attempted to mask one issue with another; I’m just here for the mechanics of deceit and rationalisation, of bitterness and self-righteousness.

                And looking over how many posts you’ve dropped on this thread it seems that I have ample examples.

                You’ve also received your pound of flesh in the form of responses to you.

                How long to do you propose to keep up this confected tantrum; this lie?

                • Master/slave cluster

                  You’re nearly there but jesus christ you’re pompous.

                  Pessoa would have something to say about that and it wouldn’t be complimentary

                  you’re clearly in

        • I will make it easy for you, I have argued:
          It is grossly inappropriate for the host to bring his hatred of Howard and Abbott into a post pretending to mourn Mandela.
          The host has not, and cannot back up his assertion that John Howard wanted Mandela hanged.
          Tony Abbott is totally irrelevant in a post concerning the passing of Mandela and it is grossly inappropriate to suggest otherwise.

          Show me where I have posted outside those three arguments, and link it to the tea party.

    • What are your qualifications for deciding what is and what is not appropriated for anyone?

      The pigeon hole of neoliberal imprialist barbarian untermenschen T Party control freak might be too confining for you but it is you and your behavior here that is more embarrassing for you than inappropriate.

      Few here are likely to take you seriously because you are recognized for what you are and no words are needed.

      if you had any soul you’d know that Nelson Mandela lives and is laughing at you.

      His spirit lives.

      You too can become civilized instead of pretending you are when nobody here is fooled.

      Show us that you can act as civilized as Nelson Mandela would have, Imitate Nelson Mandela.

      • Well said Malcolm, but I fear the young man’s injury lies elsewhere.

        Bob is his target, Mandela is simply the instrument.

      • So I am overreaching when I say that Bob’s post is inappropriate, but you are on-song when you say the spirit of Nelson Mandela is laughing at me.

        You learn something every day.

        • When, in print, did you first speak up for Nelson Mandela? Evidence please.

          When did Tony Abbott?

          Why did Tony Abbott, in the past 24 years, strive to meet him?

          When first, if ever, did Tony Abbott speak up for the Black African cause?

          Chapter and verse, please.

        • Laughing at all of this.

          Not to ridicule but out of pure joy and knowledge that he made a difference and shows us all the way to liberty from dogmas and mind manacles.

          Let freedom ring.

    • Look at the dancing string you dangled so skillfully Hugh Weiss. Nice work. Nelson loves you. In contrast to the legend tho’ he is no Gandhi and yet he too is a great soul.

      I think Carlos Santana knew him well enough to be taken seriously.

  10. relevant for the Howard debate

    (AFP) – Jul 1, 2008
    WASHINGTON (AFP) — The United States has removed former South African president Nelson Mandela and his African National Congress from a three-decade old immigration watch list for possible terrorists, the White House said Tuesday.

  11. Kris2, that you write Bob is a cunt makes you the biggest grub of all.

  12. The world mourns the passing of Nelson Mandela.

    Nelson Mandela will forever be remembered as more than a political leader, he was a moral leader.

    He spent much of his life standing against the injustice of apartheid.

    When that fight was won, he inspired us again by his capacity to forgive and reconcile his country.

    While the world may never see another Nelson Mandela, he has inspired countless men and women throughout the world to live more courageous and honest lives.

    On behalf of the Australian Government and the Australian community, I extend my condolences to Mr. Mandela’s family and to the people of South Africa.

    • Kris2
      John Howard thanks you for that tribute on his behalf
      because every quality you gift
      Mandela
      Howard was sorely and sadley lacking

      • Howard was definitely lacking. Doesn’t equate to wanting him hanged though.

        That was PM Tony Abbott’s tribute to the man though.

    • reconcile

      If you want to honour Mandela then reconcile like he did – forgive your enemies like Jesus did.

      And advise Tony Abbott and his boss Rupert Murdoch to reconcile with Obama and the ALP and insist that Howard confess what he wanted when he first became aware of the hang Mandela tea party shirt

  13. If I was little John, I would sue big Bob for 355,000 dollars.

  14. Very good article and people speaking about Mandela here

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/05/nelson-mandela-dies-aged-95-live-updates

    Deeply moving!

  15. The violence that I saw on my TV during the late 80′s and early 90′s between the ANC and Inkatha has never been surpassed.

    I can still remember my mother crying in the kitchen, buckled over, swollen face.

    Vale Mandela

    Vale each and every living soul whose lives were extinguished in fear and torture.

  16. Here is another link of the condolences.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5juA9SEBJzZFFFWExI5ofV1Rlm-Ow?docId=7b1f426b-3879-442f-8f6b-555711dd0511

    Tony Abbott was rather tongue in cheek about Mandela, but did he may have said more?

  17. Vale Nelson Mandela.

    One of the very greatest of great men.

    • Not quite Doug.

      • You think not?

        In 1990 or so I was expecting a bloodbath in South Africa, when the 25 million flexed their muscles against the 3 million.

        It never happened, largely thanks to Nelson Mandela’s leadership, his enormous political clout and his willingness to forgive.

        I cannot name any one man who ever did any greater service to humanity.

        • Doug, any man in the service of Politics during time of political/social revolution has had his conscience bathed in blood.
          The atrocities committed by, and in the name of, the ANC during those horrific years are also part of Mandela’s legacy.
          If you have the courage, I do not, youtube a few doco’s from the ANC/Inkatha bloodbath and see if your praise might be tempered somewhat by the human cost of the ‘politics’ that accord men the status of ‘great’.

          I’m not attempting any kind of revisionism here, I’m just wary of the hyperbole.

          ‘One of the very greatest of great men’

          No, not for me.

        • ‘I cannot name any one man who ever did any greater service to humanity.’

          Jenner, Fleming, Pasteur

          • Argumentative bugger, aren’t you!

            All right, I will agree that they were wonderful. Everyone has his or her own criteria of greatness; I have been forced to argue for Napoleon recently.

            One could also argue for many others, and many a monster had unintended good consequences.

            BTW, I don’t think you can lay all the excesses of the ANC at Mandela’s door.

            (query, are you a yarpie :?: )

            • Me?!?
              Argumentative!
              You kidding me?
              When have you known me to be argumentative?

              I mean, over these…what…4 years….have you known me to be pugnacious?

              .

              You’re about 8-9 thousand km too far south Doug.

              • As I recall, Custard is a former Rhodesian (Zimbabwean being too recent an event) and I found common ground with her, attacking Mugabe. Who needs attacking, of course; the monster is probably responsible for 10 million deaths by now.

                (PS I didn’t really think you were one, Nick. A European, eh?)

  18. I posted that separately because I would rather not mention the slimy little toad known as John Howard in the same post as one of the greats.

    Much less the present incumbent of our highest elected office.

  19. Kris2
    Why you ask?

    Howard will be slipstreaming the leaders who were outspoken and supportive during Mandela’s life.

    It is entirely relevant, especially today, Howard is called out on the hypocricy of his eulogy.

    Abusing anybody for saying so makes you a grub.

    • I have just said that Howard never asked for Mandela to be hung. Re-read my posts, and realise that I have not supported Howard’s stance on apartheid.

      I know it is easier arguing what you would have liked me to have said, but sorry. Stay on point.

    • The sleazy sleight of hand involved in substituting “asked for” in place of “wanted” in Bob’s original statement:
      “…Howard wanted Mandela hanged”
      is yet another indicator of your psychotic alienation and destructive inclinations.

      How could you possibly know that Howard never asked for Mandela to be hanged? Why inflated the question asked.

      • So that is guilty then Mal?

        • Morrison never says that he wants asylum seekers drowning; he averts his eyes and talks about boats, as it seems proper to say that he definitely doesn’t want the boats sinking (drowning)…

          He also talks about the problem of people smugglers, but he does not speak of the problems asylum seekers have in trying to find safe havens…coping with hostile countries…

  20. The question asked is:

    Will Abbott now say why his hero Howard wanted Mandela hanged.

    It seems very unlikely that Tony Abbott, self-confessed political love-child of John Howard and Bronywyn Bishop will ever say why but we can speculate why and if the war criminal Howard did so.

    The “if” has already been addressed and resoundingly demonstrated in the affirmative.

    The “why” is even easier to determine by empirical observation of the facts. The copy-cat puppet Howard wanted him hanged because he heard that Thatcher’s Tory hoodlums wanted him hanged as a terrorist.

    Why did Howard want to do as he was told by his American masters Kissinger and Murdoch and their patrons? Australia’s Benedict Arnold. He went all the way like Holt and Elbeejay.

    Nelson Mandela is laughing.

    Free free free at last.

    • Nelson Mandela once said:

      “As the years progress one increasingly realises the importance of friendship and human solidarity. And if a 90-year-old may offer some unsolicited advice on this occasion, it would be that you, irrespective of your age, should place human solidarity, the concern for the other, at the centre of the values by which you live.”

      Lecture in Kliptown, Soweto, July 12, 2008

      To follow his advice today on Table Talk is one way to honour the great soul.

  21. I go to extremes to make sure I never speak ill of Pontius Pilate at Easter.

    Brings down the whole occasion.

    • So well articulated, in so few words. kudos, allthumbs.

      We are a parochial country. We understand great loss through our own prism.

      How our leaders thought of Mandela is important to us.

    • At Easter darlin I always think thank CHRIST for all these eggs. xoxoxo

  22. Kukura…….Malignant Narcissist. You worry me. Mr Ellis, you are banned from my life. Today’s posts should be moderated better.

    • Wrong on all counts.

      Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.

      If you want Sunday School stuff, go elsewhere.

    • What’s the problem; I ploughed through all MK’s posts above and found nothing that was not a reasonable inference from the know facts.

      Howard and people he admired considered Mandela was a terrorist.

      Howard has killed many people who were not even terrorists, but merely living in a land Howard decided to invade illegally.

      Surely it is a safe conclusion that he would have liked to kill Mandela

    • Dear person code named Rosemarie Gray
      - a message channelled from the great soul – “please try to place human solidarity, the concern for the other, at the centre of the values by which you live.”

      Own your own malignant narcissism and cease projecting your psychosis.
      End the denial and take the first of twelve steps to freedom if you dare.

      Sapere Aude.

  23. I never went to Sunday School. What does that mean? I am a Psychotherapist. Does that mean DQ I can call you an arse licking fuckwit?

    • your complaint is about words such as “arse licking fuckwit”? seriously?

      Pretty childish overkill for a reasonably literate person I agree, but nothing you couldn’t hear in a million conversations that took place in Austrlalia this day

      Do you really have a problem with that?

      You are a mental health professional?

      I strongly suggest you have a discussion with a colleague about this

    • An interesting reply from a self-proclaimed “capital P” psychotherapist.

      Call me that if you like, if you have some cause. “Sticks and stones” and all that.

      Your complaint seems to be related to vigorous language. Personally I would see no problem in calling you a miserable lying idol of idiot worshippers.

      I would not call you a lying fucking cunt, for it might offend your sensibilities.

      :lol: :lol: :lol:

  24. JS: I get what you are saying but it’s all far too dramatic and over simplified here. I live in the Here and Now. I don’t give a monkeys what someone thought or did an age ago. Live in the moment and love and respect a great man like Mandela. What would he say about Howard? It would be a whole heap kinder than I hear here.

  25. I am being childish at the moment I agree JS. Forgive me. And I obviously do have a problem with that. It’s all this hanging stuff. No one is producing evidence. I loathe the notion that this situation is being manipulated (Politicised) by Ellis just to score points. Why do people do that. Mandela would be horrified. (And I did meet him many times).

    • Kudos to you for your responses, RG.

      “all far too dramatic and over simplified here” – I agree, except for the “all” – there is a deal of wheat among the chaff, but one does need a strong stomach at times

      And after all, in this case there is a serious matter at issue, an issue indeed of life and death.

      Lives are at stake in the actions and the behind-the-scenes activities of Prime Ministers. Iraq is an unambiguos case in point

      Regarding Mandela, Howard’s clear hostility to the black cause in South Africa at the time was at the very least arguably an encouragement to a murderous regime

      Some parts of the British Conservative party did indeed print a Tshirt calling for the execution of Mandela as a terrorist

      These are important issues

      Regarding Mandela himself, yes, he did try to cool emotions in the aftermath of the white regime

      But don’t forget that Mandela was a practical politician and before that a freedom fighter. He was not some extra-mundane saint

      This seems to me a fair picture:

      “His unwavering style of leadership has led many to regard him as a modern Gandhi. Yet while he at times revelled in the rapture, this description irked him.

      “He was the first to say he was not a saint. He after all championed the ANC’s adoption of the “armed struggle”, even if when he was on the run before Robben Island this was largely a symbolic move.

      “He neglected his family in pursuit of his drive to end apartheid, a source of deep sadness later in his life.

      “He was to the end an immensely human figure who loved life and laughter and was subject to the same weaknesses and foibles as the rest of us.

      “Desmond Tutu, his friend and fellow Nobel peace laureate, was one of the first to question the world’s sanctification of “Madiba” – his clan name and how he liked to be known.

      “Archbishop Tutu appreciated long before it became a commonplace that the cult of Mandela risked blinding people to the colossal problems facing South Africa. “He is only one pebble on the beach, one of thousands,” he said halfway through Mandela’s term in office. “Not an insignificant pebble, I’ll grant you that, but a pebble all the same.”

      “The “Arch” was right. The otherworldly image of Mandela may have been what the world wanted to believe but, great humanitarian and moral authority as he was, he was foremost a brilliant politician.

      “Reconciliation was not a spontaneous miracle, as some imagined, emanating from the magnificence of his soul.

      “Rather, the seduction of the Afrikaners was plotted in his cell as a way to win power. He pondered many times that his long imprisonment gave him the time to reflect on how he should lead.

      “It was there he urged fellow prisoners to learn Afrikaans, on the theory you could better defeat your enemy if you spoke their language.

      ” “I knew that people expected me to harbour anger towards whites,” Mandela later wrote when recalling the morning after his release. “But I had none. In prison my anger towards whites decreased but my hatred for the system grew.” ”

      http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/11bce4d2-37b0-11e1-897b-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl

  26. Never. Nor Abbott.

  27. You are free to go, but don’t leave town without permission

  28. All hail to thee JS. Freedom.

  29. Do remember that Tony Soprano and Doctor Melfi had the good sense not to breach the ethical barrier that seems about to be dropped like a used rubber.

    • Ha ha. Yes, it was all fantasy. Remember this line
      Tony Soprano: I had a dream I fucked your brains out. Right on that desk, and you loved it. Dr. Melfi: Well, you threw that at me like a rock.

  30. Mandiba is dancing and laughing.

    Spirits can do that.

    Look at the shit storm he stirred up.

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